Session Information:

Customer-driven digital transformation

Today's banks and financial institutions face challenges that seem to be familiar and very well known: globalization, competition, regulators, and rapid technological development. The global pandemic has certainly made it all much more difficult. 

Banks exist to deliver value to their stakeholders. Interestingly, to achieve this goal, they must focus on delivering value to their clients.  

This is especially important when banks and financial institutions are undergoing digital transformation. However technically it sounds, in order to succeed digital transformation must be client-oriented - and start with definition of strategic architecture and client-driven journey.  

Using real-life examples, this session will explain:

• how to ensure client is at the center of digital transformation

• what digital transformation frameworks, methodologies and tools should be employed

• how to measure the success of digital transformation.

Session Transcript:

We have customer driven, digital, you know, innovate.

Digital transformation from H S B C.

Typically based in the UK. And today, directly from Poland, we have doctor Arthur Price, Senior Business Architect of digital Transformation, HSBC. Doctor Arthur, please turn on your camera and join us, I'll do a brief introduction. Arthur Prices and accomplish, client's life cycle business architect and target operating model professional with over 15 years of practice experience, primarily in the finance industry. He has experience in designing strategic business architecture and operating models, acting as a single point of contact for the transformation teams, and ensuring business principles are appropriately embedded into the project delivering expected outcomes.

He's an expert in the business architecture and business model design frameworks. He has worked in organizations in the UK, the United States, Poland, Germany, and Singapore. He is an active member of the Business Architecture Guild, the International Compliance Association, and the Center for Financial Professionals.

Doctor Arthur Price, it's a real pleasure to have you with us. And we very much look forward to your presentation.

Thank you, Joseph, for a nice introduction, and hello everyone, Glad to be here, and talk to you all. I hope you can see and hear me clearly. My name is doctor Price, just said, I'm a senior business architect currently pages, PC working for Global Banking markets line of business. Where I'm looking after those Strategic Business architecture, that top part of the bank, is currently implementing as a part of the huge, huge, digital transformation.

The item I wanted to present today during next 30 minutes or so, is on how I chose B, C. Is transforming its business services and processes in order to charge them to the changing Clients, client, expectations and make them available. Where and when clients will want them to be, to be available. They, this obviously requires digitization of, detente digitalization of processes. We are going to talk, mainly about business clients, rather than retaining customers. But, I'm pretty much sure that the principles, or will be discussing can be applied to both segments keep, in mind, this assumption place, especially when I will be providing you with the context of what business services for Global banking markets used to be, and how they evolved since or still evolving.

This is something I'm pretty much sure is a never ending story before we will discuss details of how HE just B C is transforming client related processes.

Let's pause for a moment and takes them back, to understand the why the peak choke forces, which are standing behind HSBC transformation. And I'm pretty much sure lots of the transformations, similar initiatives across the globe. To do this, we're going to talk about key challenges that, that today's banks and other financial organizations are facing, as well as key questions that need to be aware of an onset in order to stay competitive and trying to develop the footprint.

It's been already sent him, multiple times during the last few days that the financial services industry is currently undergoing a radical shift, that radical shift mainly. It's in the form of digital transformation, which is driven by, for example, things like new competition from fintechs changes in regulatory environment or raising disruptive technologies. That the digital experience that fintechs, especially, are using as a, as a key, competitive differentiator, means for clients to be able to get what they want when they wanted, and how they wanted.

It means that clients, for example, are not to be bought it, if it's not necessarily required, but, if they need to be borders, clients are able or should be able to use channels. They want to, people prefer to use, without the need of going, for example, to the local branch, of meeting the mind representatives, which, what's become important and especially now in the era of Global condemning this approach is forcing traditional financial organization to rethink the way, how they do the business.

Challenge. Which I personally find interesting, and very common, is that many banks and financial organizations today often use outdated business management applications and or siloed systems. And those antiquated tools make them unable to keep up with the today's increasingly digital first words. But now, the solid forward thinking, technological, foundation, based organizations, can miss out on the current evolution, where digital transformation is not just a good idea. It's become imperative for survival.

All of these challenges, which we discussed so you can see on the screen on the left hand side, lead to important questions, all financial organizations have to be able to answer in order to the time in next steps, and in order to stay afloat. Let's take a look at some of those questions now. The first one, can financial institution adapt to disruption in financial services?

The accelerating pace of technological advancement in financial services are creating opportunities to serve clients in new ways, completely new age, Financial institutions, She seemed to be in this area in a pretty much good position, with massive customer basis, strong balance sheets, and substantial amounts of capital to invest.

On the other side though, as we shared the field trends, not only from the newsstand shop but also from large-scale Golgi platforms.

Think about Apple think about some sir assumption because example, which also trying to enter into that financial services, it is fairly easy for these huge services and service providers to offer bank insurance across the networks with which comprises billions, sometimes consumers.

Another important question is, can magic institutions transform their businesses? Some income and may struggle to respond to the pace of change in financial services, yet they have to adopt some of the best aspects, at least, of fintech starts up.

And tech companies, if they are to remain competitive pentax, winging market, share by providing ease of access, and cheaper, more flexible services for incumbents to do those things, they need to make organizational changes to culture. And the operations, some incumbents are changing the way they think about the organizations, including gummed up adopting methods, come on in tech companies, and startups, such as Agile Project Management DevOps, or sprints. So, they cannot embrace them, move fast, and break things. Culture of the technology sector incumbents are changing, or trying to change in parallel structure, someday.

That requires changes, and adoptions can get that, can get done more quickly. Be, for example, create separate organizations to branch, that offer more flexibility, and put their network to change organizational culture, to make it more flexible and open, to innovation. As part of that culture change caused by fintechs, those, let's say, new kids on the block, most incumbents, even decided to, and this is unbelievable, for them, increases the tolerance for risk, in order to encourage innovative thinking. And the last question: can a financial service providers increase inclusion, new business models, make it feasible for financial services, or to bring those financial services to those who previously had been seen as a commercial unreachable?

In part, because the widespread adoption of mobile devices and self service, internet platforms has opened up new distribution channels, bringing many new consumers into the formal financial system.

Advances in technology have significantly significant, significantly lowered the cost to reach to this new customers or clients, meaning that financial inclusion can be a source of growth for both traditional and new players.

Now, having in mind key challenges and questions, we've just talked about the following question may arise what an organization should do to keep up, and to become a leader in today's client, client driven, and digitally oriented. Word. Research on digitization, produced by one of the biggest consulting companies, answered this question with three main findings, tries the lead us to understand the importance of digital strategy. Second, day organizations have to develop and establish more Agile operating models, and most notably, first one, they had to tackle the need for internal culture shifts.

As more customers today, also, large businesses, huge mobile platforms, to do the banking, a seamless omni omnichannel experience has become crucial aspect of digital strategy that banks and financial organizations must adopt this going forward. We'll send, you certainly, mean fewer physical branches, for example, and a more mobile services with a client experience. that is both complementary and consistency in all or across all channels. As one person said, banks, thanks in channels, but customers don't.

And financial services organizations have to understand, the organizational silos, pose a significant obstacles or obstacles to creating a consistent experience. It requires not only understanding what customers or clients won't but also looking inwards and changing on organizational beliefs and habits to be able to facilitate required innovations. We have already highlighted the importance of innovating culture, Which may be difficult to introduce, especially for already established incumbent open innovation, and ecosystems, the genesis of design and delivery in the digital era, sorry. The market is moving fast, as we know.

and to lead the race requires requires highly efficient technology capabilities which are becoming a main differentiator when it comes to improving the client experience also. And this trend has already caused the banks to open up the systems or middleware layers to private parties and use of open APIs. All of sudden, co creation and collaboration with other organizations for the good of the clients has become the new mantra in the financial services world. Another important elements, as well as X, as expected outcome of digital transformation, is flexibility and agility. That, nowadays, is so much talked about, and is commonly understood, as we need to move faster, and transform quicker. But it does not mean that having only showed vision is enough or should be enough for any organization.

Conversely, we should say, clear, long-term vision and short term execution is something, what is a client, you know, that to succeed.

Perhaps the most important, and indeed, the most difficult change that the traditional banks and financial organizations to implement is a mindset change, though. The digital age is fundamentally impacting culture, as it forces those organizations to shift from a product centric point of view to client centric one. From a place where the current IT setup is doing the job to tech savy mindset, from planning cycles to test and learn approach and to do this in the right way.

Banks and financial organizations must put themselves into the client shoes and understand what the clients clients want, rather than think they can, or what they can or may offer to them. Let's imagine for a moment what may go through some clients minds when they experience the journey at the banks that can take days or even weeks? They might be thinking this, why does, doesn't my bank work like like Amazon?

And those clients who think this apt to think that the banks have ample time to figure out why, and what Amazon or other leading clays, are doing in this other industry and why they're doing this right, in order to also take this approach and emulated. In order to succeed in the transform digital transformations banks and other financial organization need to determine what matters most critical Points in the client journey, which, by the way, he's going to Generate and greatly between vary greatly approaches between different client segments, and then work relentlessly to improve the experience. The end goal might be to completely digitize journey from start to finish. In, order to provide a rapid, for example, onboarding process, and ensure that clients are able to use banking products as soon as possible.

Not only does a digitized and automated journey made clients happy to also frees up stuff for more valuable tasks, or activities, like cross selling and the relationship building. While simultaneously saving the financial institution mammy. By streamlining processes, that's, obviously a triple win.

Now, with all that in mind, that stuck practice, this wouldn't be about HSBC taking digital and client driven approach to re-invent its clients experience and reduce its operating operating costs in the same coin.

Before, we'll talk the details as far as, I'm going to put this part of our conversation into the right context, which, I hope, will be helpful in understanding of what, that Digital Transformation Decay Spar and where we're kind of coming from.

As I mentioned at the beginning, the part of the bank I'm currently working for, as a business architect, is Global Banking and Markets, its clients, a main large corporates, as well as financial institutions and public sectors, sector companies, or entities with banks, central banks.

Actually, just insurers and hedge funds at HSBC offers them a full range of banking products for example, Corporate banking services in credit and rates, foreign exchange, Equities, Money Markets, Fund, ministration, Assessment in mergers, and Acquisitions, and Dance and equity, Capital, raising, and many, many more global banking markets develops its products, sell them, and deliver them to the clients.

Each uses up support of so called, business, services, function, in order to onboard new clients, and the products, to maintain existing client data, required for risk and compliance compliance reasons. As well as two of Porch or X, it's existing clients, in case of either commercial, reputational, or financial crime risk coach.

For many years, business services, we're operating with a hugely segregated and separate, siloed. So to speak set of services that are being employed in order to onboard and maintain GBM clients. As results on boarding process has been very painful for both the bank and its new clients, especially for new clients.

Worst-case scenarios, it was taking up to three months to onboard a complex multi jurisdictional clients. Is it to imagine that that wasn't the best experience for you to bond clients that the bank was happy with? Additionally, due to the nature of processes that financial organizations at each of the Apache ... risk and the regulatory requirements, as well as due to inefficiencies in a sea of Greek model onboarding of new client. As well as periodic reviews of existing data. Required multiple interactions with clients performed by multiple banks, representatives, in order to obtain needed.

They tend to ..., believe me, a real nightmare for the corporate and institutional clients, especially, that all of them deal make businesses with the pump as vendors, providing them with a much more seamless services and products they needs, so it was easy for them to compress and simply ask doesn't HSBC work-life, Amazon or like other any other company opened that didn't quit functions. Then that belongs to business services like KYC, know, your customer, client, credit, or regulatory classification obviously had an access to both internal and external data sources rather than fully utilize or utilizing them and fully benefit from the day they offer.

They still relied on data and documentation provided mean the point, the point himself. one of the main reason for this was because external data sources were integrated on a point by point basis with HSBC systems. This has created a highly ineffective and hard to maintain network of IT connections. Nobody was able to comprehend and understand the data obtained from those sources could be engaged, or should be trusted.

Similar situation applies to internal biking systems, and they tell they provided a spine utilize as many different quotes, so-called core banking systems across the world. And unfortunately, there's no standard standards set of data that could be obtained or a shift from those systems.

Very interesting and proofed, could be painful, painful for the clients are inexpensive for HSBC part of the as is operating, although you can see on the screen, from the very high level, Obviously point of view was a fog that all clients on boarding and maintenance cases have to be manually, orchestrated, and co-ordinated by so-called client, manages somebody who was sitting on the top or sometimes it's very complex and complicated processes and we needed to understand what's required, trigger and orchestrate business services.

Functions responsible for execution of, for example, onboarding maintenance processes, chose them up, in case of delays, fit them with require additional data, obtained from the client or the available data sources, as well as, at the end, to confirm completion of the case, big issue, all the time. And huge inefficiency, especially if you're trying to do this without the proper workflow system, and you have to switch between multiple different systems, without access to real time status, data, as well as, without, clearly stated, and community service level level service level agreements that everyone stick to, no matter what's to be fair with HSBC. It has tried many years to close those gaps and fix all those issues in order to improve both client experience and organizational efficiency, 1 by 1, functions responsible for onboarding activities. So, N two T data management.

Can I see credit, legal, product, and service set up an artist, have been changing, the operating models and systems aiming to improve what they do. And believe that, better client experience, what was lacking in? All these efforts was over arching and strategic end to end model that could guide the decisions to ensure today.

Or they were moving into one and grind direction, where ultimately, not only they respect your objectives and have been delivered, but also a wider view of business outcomes that could be addressed.

And where end to end client experience obviously, could be elevated to the highest possible level. This fortunately has changed last year so even before the pandemic, which in turn has much accelerated transformation, Business service management has finally realized that the whole organization needs to be brought together. And that the client journey, rather than, rather than any internal functions perspective. So, objectives have to be a driving or has to be a driving force for the next transformation chapter. This organization will be, will be going through.

The digital transformation of business services in Global bank. And the market started with a new strategic vision, completely stripped of any existing technology constraints. We decided to put away what we already knew about this organization. And there'll be see, no ink regulator and risk requirements asks ourselves, what would the goods the best look like?

Which addition, once we've come up with the eye with a strategic business architecture model, the key objective was to support the ideal client journey. Once agreed, and approved by all, it's laid the foundation for all the transformation work that is currently undergoing. A key objective was the target business architecture should enable seamless client journey, and the reduction of internal effort and cost where possible. Our key guiding principles design principles, where following changes must be looked at and assess and designed it from end to end client journey perspective.

Client should be able to use self-service platform to raise a request, for, for example, a new product or updated date. Observe case status, provides additional data, all documents. And be not the point of case completion.

The portal should allow clients to interact with the bank representatives. In case some help, or support library replied using collaborations tools like Tractable FAQ section. That should be also availability to integrate client system with the bank application. So the client could use his own tools and systems to perform some of all activity.

So, people will sign debunks platform data, should be at the center of transformation, and drive all decisions around data model processes of getting and storing data, as well as data sources cases, where client interactions will be required, should be taking place on their exceptional basis. Any client outreach should be limited to the unnecessary minimum, with all required data obtained from either internal or external, external trust, the so-called trusted data sources.

That should also be a fully automated case orchestration and process responsible for peace creation, case initiation, case co-ordination, with downstream case, full payment functions, as well as for aggregation of multiple requests, for client that you talk before, providing clients with the single data request. Teams, which, until now, have been responsible for manual case orchestration, should be dedicated to more complex cases, where manual integrations library still required. All these design principles, and objectives, determined wayfair, regards to that strategic vision of how business services operate in the future, have been widely discussed with all impacted internal stakeholders.

Not only also with HSBC clients. We asked HSBC clients what the, what the perfect journey is for them. We wanted to understand how, for example, the client portal should work in order to meet to meet the expectations and the results. They helped us to understand that when using portal, clients wouldn't want to be asked to provide documents. Each day content. Content of those documents could be digitized, so that rather than completing soft copies, kindling them and upload them into the portal, clients could get access to electronic forms and key the data into them. These obviously creates a brilliant opportunity to create an entirely new end to end flow with digitized data provided by the client, an initial stage of data being automatically distributed to all interested parties and stored in the respective systems without a hassle.

Another interesting elements of the resolution with plans to introduce it is in the data. Which is to change the way how trusted data sources will be utilized, rather than connecting every business service system to external or internal data sources. On a point, by point, the bases there will be so-called data aggregate setup. Its key role will be to aggregate data from external and internal trust, the data sources that that duplicated data, quality, check, and ensure that there are no gaps, and only then distribute all that they come to our respective downstream systems.

There's also becoming a single trust and data source for all other systems. This process will apply to both the new data that needed to be acquired in result of your client reporting, as well as to, for existing data. Where there can be some updates that the bank needs to be aware of.

Before any implementation, or more detailed design work has been comments, we have determined perfect client journeys threshed.

This happened, to make sure that all the design and implementation decisions will be driven from the client's point of view. At that point, we already had an existing service catalog, which proved to be very helpful. It's being built around client life cycle. So we knew exactly what journeys our clients are going through. And what call internal and external capabilities need to be employed in order to support those journeys. This narrow ledge was extremely, as I said, helpful when we, when we were building our perfect journeys, especially when we needed to determine some of which of those existing capabilities will or should stay as they are going forward. But also which of those components will have to change or be change in the result of digitalization, or even which one of them will have to get the ... as the digital transformation. Would make them obscure.

Once the timings and build, client journeys are now being used to drive interim operating models and the respective implementation implementation plans.

The beauty of this approach is that, with clients journey's, being a driving force for the transformation program, As I said, everything is not only looked at, from the client's perspective, but also is considered from end to end perspective. Which is quite important element. And this itself, is a massive change in how this organization thinks about client and his needs. There is no me, myself, and our approach anymore, which previously all business services functions where following when applying changes, today operating models.

Now, the day you are operating models are part of the big, cross organizational strategic architecture model, and any changes being made have to fit into the bigger picture and ensure that there is no harm to the ultimate client experience. It massively helps also to ensure that any changes they make, a moving them, and the entire organization, into that, right direction, Which is strategic direction, that has been determined to establish, at the beginning, of the overall digital transformation. And, believe me, or notes, for myself, business architect, and for the rest of the organization, it has to make everyone's life much, much easier. Obviously, we still discuss, these guys were still argue about how that strategic, high level vision should be implemented here.

But on the idea, and we have got long-term view and guiding principles, which help us to drive short term execution plans with exact knowledge of the direction we are, we're all aiming for. Client experience has been also on everyone's mind when decision regarding how exactly that strategic mothers should get implemented.

Rather than embark on the large-scale, long-term digital transformation program, HSBC decided to go buy a quick small H build momentum, engage clients and to keep the interest high. And here's how you come around global Head of Corporate and institutional the institutional digital at HSBC Talk. About this, we decided from the beginning that if we spend all our time and resources on engineering the pipes under the floorboards, we would lose the confidence of our customers. even if we match our Objective C in the long-term, we have funds that a balanced portfolio of short-term high impact, but predominantly channeled based projects along with long-term restructuring.

This is the way to go.

And that's the way how things are currently being transformed in global banking and markets at HSBC.

I hope you have found things we discussed today somehow interesting.

If I went to trying to summarize the key takeaway points from what I've been talking about as well as key lessons learned from the ongoing HSBC digital transformation, that would be those free price one when transforming your processes and infrastructure, make sure it revolves around your clients, ideally, start with a perfect client experience. And let this experience this approach, drive your transformation decision.

Second one, make sure you have skills and knowledge required to deliver your transformation in the best possible way, way. Otherwise, you can have the best plan envision in the words but it will mean nothing if it can be executed properly and on time and as promised to your clients. And the first one, last one. Remember that the ultimate success criteria is your client experience and not your performance can indicate any other performance indicators. You can make your process cost effective. But again, it will mean mean nothing. In the same time your clients tell you that they don't like the change you've just made, obviously, you will have to aim for balance, tried to balance between costs and client experience.

But make sure that you're driving force exactly your clients, and they experience at the end, thank you all for your attention. It's been a pleasure to be able to talk to you Joza, looking forward to hear some questions.

Terrific Arthur, thank you for for sharing the journey with us. I'm looking at questions that, as they are coming in. So please, feel free to submit your additional questions as, as we have a few minutes here. The first question that came on was about, just a bit of a timeline where, timeline in scope, where, when did the HSBC. We know that some of this is part of an internal organic process. That's kinda happened naturally. But at what point, HSBC decided that we must have a digital strategy. And, you know, when that started and how was the evolution of that in the bank? And is it, is it global? Is it regional, how, how is that strategy being deployed?

So obviously, HSBC was always thinking, gosh, every huge financial organization I guess about how to transform itself, how to make it better, the processes more efficient. And how in all this also to look at the client experience.

But I would say the last year was especially important because as he said, this is where business services within global bank and markets through your license management that now it's, it's time she wasn't even before the pandemic because it said now it's a highly top is a high tongue to start really transforming everything towards making a more digital to bring all systems silence much of this a lot. So call into the one end to end. Let's say journey. For infrastructure, sorry, infrastructure, which can support with support, end to end client journey.

And the biggest change I could observed while working with HSBC for many years, was exactly that. Found that with the realization came. Also another huge, an important element, which is that we need to think from the end to end client journey, and we need to start with a client journey. As I said, as a driving force for us. So, rather than going straight into you know, the delivery phase, and thinking about what, how we should integrate that existing technology infrastructure? Or, How to replace existing systems with perhaps better, more efficient systems.

The management and, and, and, or operations and the teams stopped for a moment. Let us to do the work and think about obviously. We've engaged with and engage them, as well into into this work, and let's think about what, what the end to end client China should look like and how all these elements and component of the overall organization, should be brought together in order to make sure that the future client journey is going to be more shameless and more painful for all clients, and what exactly, clients are expecting.

Like, for example, perhaps, to be able to use that self service portal, rather than rely on client managers doing, you know, part of the job, on the, on the behalf, or in the home.

There was quite a big surprise to us, the clients wanted to have access to the data, wanted to be able to raise your request. You want to be able to observe what, what happens with that focus. And, obviously, producing out providing them with the portal and access to the cases they will be raising is the, one of the biggest sciences. We, kind of preparing for that. We've made already available some of our clients and the adoption and implementation of all the Sphinx is going to take years.

So, when your plan, which I was talking about, that strategic vision of how our parental HSBC operating model is going to work, we kind of estimate is that this is going to take us, but at least three years, in order to implement or acquired infrastructure elements and components to determine how future processes should work, What skills and the resources will be required to implement and prepare all these things and then start rolling out across the globe. Because this is a global projects. So all regions or more than 40 countries where HSBC is currently operating will ultimately benefit from these future strategic vision.

We have a question from gun shy. Thank you for that. We have a question from Jaya Dave here. And he's talking about how are you working through the silos in an organization as large as HSBC and the his commentaries. That what do you advise to create a massive shift towards this new culture of clients Centricity? And specifically as you have a large organizations then naturally have silos that form, tell us a little bit about how you're working through all of that.

So, thank you very much for this question, is quite interesting, because we went through that.

Personally as a business architect, I went through this pain of making sure that people could think from the product perspective. Not only, as I said, you know, this is me and my part of the business. I will do everything possible to make it better, not necessary. You can see what others are doing. So the way how I started to change and shifting that way of thinking was to, before even, the strategic vision on business architecture has been prepared. I've been asked for support to determine, to come up with the service catalog, which I'm, I mentioned, also, during my speech. And it was quite an interesting thing, Because rather than taking the services and capabilities, and putting them on. For example, one page in a siloed way, which is the usual way, how capabilities and services are represented. Here is one part of organization.

The capabilities, here is another particle is, scalability is I decided to do this slightly different way.

I decided to take client journey with onboarding, maintenance, bowling, starting from the highest level, and think about what capabilities are required in order to be able to perform on boarding in order to be able to perform maintenance.

And all of a sudden, people discover that, our line capabilities and my function appears not only once, but multiple different times along the client journey, that that helped massively to change the way. how people used to think about the role and responsibilities in the entire client life cycle. As I already established no function, which is just think it's, it's not all dynamic.

It was, it was a way of thinking where my capabilities are applied as a set of multiple different stages of applying jointly with that mindset. With that approach, it will launch, is too bright to bring everybody together, and making them, working on the strategic business architecture. Which, again, was looking purely and mainly from client journey perspective, trying to understand how clients, and that's the reason why we put client on the on the top of the business model. That's the reason why we quote about client portal. And that's the reason why we probed about orchestration layer, and how to make the orchestration layer, in order to make sure that everything gets co-ordinated eyes in the fully automated way.

But all show that every interaction, which we'll come back to the client himself, will get proper, properly co-ordinated aggregated, if possible, Show that only required necessarily written by interactions with client will be possible. So it was very long time and massive amounts of where you would put into the change of mindset, but ultimately, it kind of benefits the current implementation and transformation.

Good. We have time for one other quick question here from Aaron very dark. He is actually calling from Belgium today. And, he asks, How do you deal with product ownership in such a large organizations? And with all aspects, like data, regulatory, channels, core banking, to be covered.

How do you steer from one product log, one leading product owner? So, you know, the time that we have here, just about a minute, the issue around product ownership, or how do you deal with that in the, in an organization that is so large?

Obviously, a project. The transformation of program itself is quite large, and getting just move to different people, and this is where ASIC sets all show, that the importance of the operating model or strategic vision, I should say, comes into the picture. And this really, really important, because it makes massively easier for us to talk to product owners, to business stakeholders, and make sure that ultimately, we talking about exactly the same, We have some guiding principles, and everyone more or less knows what's going to happen and the direction we're heading into this. This is a sets, real help and proves to be helpful also while exact and talking to these groups of projects or programs to coach.

Very well. Doctor Arthur Price, a real pleasure to have you with us. Thank you for taking the time, sharing your expertise and your journey with us. It's a thing, and so it's, again, a real privilege and an honor to have you here. So thank you for that.

Thank you very much, and it's been real pleasure. Thanks, Joseph. For an opportunity and CEO.

Thank you very much.

All right, ladies and gentlemen. We are wrapping up this segment and let's take a look at what comes next. We have the leader for Swiss Re, providing us with a case study on building client centric financial organizations. So, Sebastian Rhys head of operational excellence At the Swiss Re, we'll share with us his journey on how to transition, a 150 year old company to learn new tricks, to learn a new strategic direction. And have that internal drive to pursue it. So we're gonna talk about technology. We're gonna talk about culture. We're going to talk about transformation. So look forward to seeing you at the top of the hour with Sebastian Reese. Thank you.